The Apple Wiki:Community portal/2013

Boot-args cleanup
We need to clean up the boot-args pages. First the technical part: What I understand is that iBoot loads the kernel. And when loading it, it can pass some parameters to select certain behavior. So this only works with an iBoot or bootrom exploit. I understand that in earlier firmware versions there was simply an iBoot variable, but that doesn't exist or work anymore, now passing theses args requires a different or patched iBoot. There are various parameters in different kernel versions. The description for these arguments is scattered over various places: So what do we want to do about this mess? I suggest to move the current Kernel content to the redirect page Boot arguments (or to another new page, maybe boot-args). The current content of Boot-args (iBoot variable) and all other content should get merged into there. Then change all references to this new page and on the Kernel page write just something short with "main article there". What do you think? --http (talk) 21:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Kernel A section with the latest boot arguments list. This should be a short introduction and having a link "main article".
 * Boot-args (iBoot variable) separate page for boot arguments, but mainly for the iBoot variable that doesn't exist any longer
 * [ Boot arguments] (redirect)
 * Talk:Restore_Mode describing the iBoot variable problem
 * Various pages referencing boot-args, like Research: Re-allowing unsigned ramdisks and boot-args with the 2.* iBoot (here we should have a link on the second title)
 * My earlier comment Talk:Kernel
 * This comment here.
 * I like Boot Arguments. --5urd (talk) 02:01, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * One addition: Maybe we should use boot-args as the main page, because all links are written like that. --http (talk) 07:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Easy tasks for new editors

 * Finish converting the remaining error codes listed here MobileDevice_Library into the proper mach_return_t codes they should be displayed as. (convert the negative number listed into hex, strip any leading "FF" so it should be in the format "0xe80000" followed by two numbers) --Dirkg (talk) 22:40, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Banner Replacement?
I kinda feel like the banner on the front page is getting a little stale, so I'm interested in seeing it replaced. I tossed a proposal on Twitter a couple of days ago (which is admittedly plain, but Myriad Set…), but I haven't heard any opinions on replacing the banner. Are there any thoughts on this matter? --Dialexio (talk) 17:42, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Or, this. --iAdam1n (talk) 18:22, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks nice in Myriad! More professional. Britta (talk) 04:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"GSM" Replacement Proposals
Since this discussion has become extremely lengthy, here are the proposals (to my understanding) for changing the labels, each of which can be subject to changes (i.e. dropping the word "Model" from Proposal A). In an effort to conserve space (ironically, this still adds a significant amount of length), I only included a few models, which should give an idea of the proposal. Basically anything with an A5 or newer is involved. Feel free to edit this list if I missed or totally misinterpreted something. --Dialexio (talk) 03:25, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Proposal A (A1XXX numbers)
 * 2) * iPad 4 (Model A1458)
 * 3) * iPad 4 (Model A1459)
 * 4) * iPad 4 (Model A1460)
 * 5) * iPhone 5 (Model A1428)
 * 6) * iPhone 5 (Model A1429/A1442)
 * 7) * iPhone 5c (Model A1456/A1532)
 * 8) * iPhone 5c (Model A1507/A1516/A1526/A1529)
 * 9) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPad 4 A1458)
 * 10) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone 5 A1429/A1442)
 * 11) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone 5c Model A1507/A1516/A1526/A1529)
 * 12) Proposal B (A1XXX + FCC ID)
 * 13) * iPad 4 (Model A1458)
 * 14) * iPad 4 (Model A1459)
 * 15) * iPad 4 (Model A1460)
 * 16) * iPhone 5 (Model A1428)
 * 17) * iPhone 5 (Model A1429/A1442)
 * 18) * iPhone 5c (BCG‑E2644A)
 * 19) * iPhone 5c (BCG‑E2694X)
 * 20) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPad 4 A1458)
 * 21) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone 5 A1429/A1442)
 * 22) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone 5c BCG‑E2694X)
 * 23) Proposal C (-AP Identifier)
 * 24) * iPad 4 (p101ap)
 * 25) * iPad 4 (p102ap)
 * 26) * iPad 4 (p103ap)
 * 27) * iPhone 5 (n41ap)
 * 28) * iPhone 5 (n42ap)
 * 29) * iPhone 5c (n48ap)
 * 30) * iPhone 5c (n49ap)
 * 31) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPad 4 p101ap)
 * 32) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone 5c n42ap)
 * 33) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone 5c n49ap)
 * 34) Proposal D (iPhoneX,Y Identifier)
 * 35) * iPad 4 (iPad3,4)
 * 36) * iPad 4 (iPad3,5)
 * 37) * iPad 4 (iPad3,6)
 * 38) * iPhone 5 (iPhone5,1)
 * 39) * iPhone 5 (iPhone5,2)
 * 40) * iPhone 5c (iPhone5,3)
 * 41) * iPhone 5c (iPhone5,4)
 * 42) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPad3,4)
 * 43) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone5,2)
 * 44) * InnsbruckTaos 11B554a (iPhone5,4)


 * I like this InnsbruckTaos 11B554a iPad 4 (3,4) or InnsbruckTaos 11B554a iPad 4 (iPad3,4). I see there are 4 ways to approach this;

1. Change every single device.

2. Change just devices with different variants, iPad 2+, iPad mini+, iPhone 4, iPhone 5+.

3. Change A5+ only (which I hate the idea of).

4. Change nothing at all.

--iAdam1n (talk) 09:28, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * My intention for this was to be a neutral (i.e. opinion-free) spot where all of the proposals were being mentioned, so people could easily see the proposed changes without any bias… v.v --Dialexio (talk) 20:54, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * TBH, I think it is better as it is, but I just stated my opinion that only A5+ would make in inconsistent. Though you could argue it is already, that is down to Apple and furthermore, just A5+ would still not eliminate iPhone 4 (GSM, GSM Rev A or CDMA). --iAdam1n (talk) 17:07, November 22, 2013‎ (UTC)}}
 * Do it like #4, and do them all. --CompilingEntropy (talk) 18:40, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It will be a pain, but I like CompilingEntropy's idea as it would make it much much better in the end. --iAdam1n (talk) 16:25, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I would say A and B are impossible due to various numbers in the same model. I like C best. For variant C you could also leave away the "ap" at the end, because every model has that, so it would be even shorter. For D, that's simply longer names and these names are not used at many places, but I could live with that version as well. --http (talk) 23:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Taking into account everyone's thoughts on this, I think we'll probably go with option C. The wiki already uses the "-ap" identifiers for the model pages, and an identifier like "iPad3,4" may confuse someone into thinking it's a model of the iPad 3. (I would still like to use the A1XXX numbers since Apple does that, but nobody else seems to agree now…) I'll give this a few more days for any last words before acting on it. --Dialexio (talk) 04:03, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It will get changed before the year ends. I don't know why your opinion keeps changing, but I have already explained the reason for changing it. You even agreed that it needs to be changed. I'm still open to suggestions on what to change it to though. Keep in mind that the change will affect not only key pages, but also how the devices will be referred to throughout the wiki. --Dialexio (talk) 19:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I know it will. I said it is fine to change. I like bot #3 and #4. Only point I must make is that I feel we should change all devices with multiple variants, including iPad Air and iPhone 4. This way, it is consistent and also removes GSM etc altogether. --iAdam1n (talk) 19:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Adam, if you're going to change some of them then change all of them. This includes iPods. Whatever the outcome, be consistent. As for the outcome itself, I really think we should just use device identifiers (iPhone2,1). That's what we're actually differentiating by, so it only makes sense to refer to devices by them. I don't think there would be any confusion, especially considering we'll keep the name of the device next to it regardless. Barring that, the next best option is ***ap. The other options don't make any sense considering modern devices. --CompilingEntropy (talk) 10:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I like CompilingEntropy's idea, though I do not mind if we do every device or just ones with multiple variants, as long as that included pre A5 (iPhone 4) too. --iAdam1n (talk) 18:34, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

#we r of #WONDER

 * 1) we r hav from of #QUESTIN holme ! #we r from of #WONDER #what is of #RESON in of #EDIT #wikeee ? #tanks and of RT #RT Smiley Smiley :) :)


 * 1) we r of #WONDER ! #is from also #of #WAKIKIKI #open src :) #is avalable under from of #FRE license ? --UnthreadedJB (talk) 21:11, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * See above; no formal license for the content at the moment, and it'd be nice to get more opinions on this from other editors. Britta (talk) 22:47, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Key page template
I actually like the idea of a database to an extent. I bet I could put together an extension that creates a special page that allows read access to everyone (and r/w access to users). Any edits to the key "pages" wouldn't cause a recent changes log. If we ever needed to update the layout, we would just need to update the extension. We could even have an API. The only limitation is that updates to the extension would require either George or Alex needing to upload the fix. If we were to set up an external site, then all links to it would need to be wrapped with. Maybe a simple extension that takes links and redirects you to the external site? That could work. Like, we would have a link to, say,  which would give an HTTP   header to, say,. Granted, someone would have to pay for the domain, but it would solve this problem. I may be able to pay for the domain if I make enough money by the time I finish writing everything. Any opposition? --5urd (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not like the idea. I like the idea of the database to a degree, but I think that the pages should remain on this wiki. --iAdam1n (talk) 17:03, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see this solving any problem— the backlash against changing the key page template was because of (unnecessary?) changes to the arguments, and the frequency of how often such changes were being proposed/applied. How would a database prevent it? For instance, let's say the database columns are all decided on. Suddenly, it's decided that SHA-1 hashes should be added as well, or perhaps "VFDecryptKey" will be renamed to "FSKey." People submitting keys would still be bothered with having to adjust for those changes. --Dialexio (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * That with the database is something I'll implement anyway (if not someone else is faster, as I'm quite busy). I just threw that in here as it might solve the problem of the frequent template updates (which is/was wrong anyway). From there it would be easy to create the VFDecrypt page with an overview link or lists of missing keys and that stuff, so the wiki would not need any direct links. But it would mean that we either completely remove all keys here from the wiki and embrace that solution or have them still duplicate (which then doesn't solve the problem). Dialexio: renaming columns can be handled without interface changes, but that's another topic. So let's forget about this database thing for now and we can discuss again when I have something. We certainly don't want to add extensions for that. So back to the discussion about the renaming: If I understood this correctly, you only want to rename A5+ devices and therefore no key pages would be affected. Is my understanding correct? --http (talk) 22:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * As long as the pages stay on this wiki, I do not mind. Although, a database could be pointless as with only 50 more pages to edit for the new format, there is no planned new format/changes again. --iAdam1n (talk) 22:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
 * About the renaming, that is correct; I'm only interested in changing the cellular labels on A5/+ devices. (Well, the iPad 2 can remain as-is.) --Dialexio (talk) 00:02, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, well that would just make things more complicated/inconsistent. We should do all or none. About the template idea, there is also no need as it is not likely we will change the format again. --iAdam1n (talk) 00:35, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Do we really need to CHANGE THE FORMAT 50 TIMES IN A ROW? The old one before everything was messed with worked fine enough. Winocm (talk) 18:22, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
 * It was actually one change, which was completed. --iAdam1n (talk) 18:32, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

A1XXX model numbers vs. "GSM"/"CDMA"/"Global"/"Cellular"/etc.
I know that this topic was already discussed earlier this year, but it didn't seem to come to a consensus, and the introduction of the iPhone 5c and iPhone 5s brought a lot of model numbers. Some of them may "overlap" (think models A1429 and A1442 for the iPhone 5), but there's simply too many to give names to. There are at least two that can connect to CDMA networks, and all of them can connect to GSM. In addition, with the sheer amount of models, it doesn't seem likely for one model to be treated as a "global" model. Therefore, I changed the iPhone 5c to use model numbers. I would like to do the same to some of the devices that are already present on the wiki though— the same ones from when I first brought up this idea. The GSM/CDMA names work very well for the iPad 2 and iPhone 4. Things are slightly murkier for the iPad (3rd gen.), iPad (4th gen.), iPad mini 1G, and iPhone 5 though; all of those devices' cellular models can connect to GSM networks, so it seems like nonsense to call some of them the "GSM model." The A1XXX model numbers are also how Apple tells the difference between the different models of these devices. Have any opinions changed? Or perhaps someone new might have something to say about this? --Dialexio (talk) 06:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I actually like the idea as it does get complicated now with the new devices coming like said and we would have to do this for all devices. Although, if we did this, we would have to move all the key pages that have keys on to support this. That would not be a big problem as we could limit the moves to say 20 per day. --iAdam1n (talk) 09:47, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest we wait a bit until we see what models of the iPhone 5c and iPhone 5s will exist. But in general, I like the idea of using only the A1nnn numbers. The only issue I see right now is that Apple differentiates between A1532 GSM and A1532 CDMA. If there are real hardware differences between these two, then we're screwed again. That's why I suggest to wait until we know these exact model types. On the disambiguation page I added the GSM/CDMA model differentiation already (as Apple does). If they turn out to be the same, we can remove it again, but I wonder why Apple lists two models (with different bands supported) there now. Someone also added the "CDMA" mark to one of the others, but that's not how Apple marks them, so I suggest to remove that mark there again. If everything can be differentiated by these A-model-numbers, then yes, we should change the old pages too. Including all key pages. --http (talk) 14:44, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I do know there are 2 CDMA and 3-4 GSM for the iPhone 5c alone. --iAdam1n (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Ahem… All of the iPhone 5c models can do GSM communications. Hence one of the reasons why I want to ditch the "GSM"/"Global"/etc. labels in favor of A1XXX model numbers. ;P --Dialexio (talk) 16:07, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * One thing is, what about iPod touch 5 as that has two model numbers that are the same device, same with iPhone5,2. How would we get around that? I suppose we could like both separated with a forward slash. --iAdam1n (talk) 18:19, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, we could just use something like "iPhone 5 (Model A1429/A1442)." --Dialexio (talk) 22:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah I thought that but what about the iPhone 4 GSM and GSM Rev A? They both seem to be A1432. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:10, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * This is why I'm against using the A1XXX model numbers instead of the current GSM/Global thing. --5urd (talk) 23:25, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I had no plans to change the way we refer to the iPhone 4 or iPad 2 (Apple does use GSM/CDMA, and for those devices it works fine). If a new iPhone 5S revision comes along, Apple will probably refer to it as a "Rev A" thing, and so will we. --Dialexio (talk) 02:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Referencing Adam's reply above, if we had took that to the key pages, it'd be  which would mess everything up. What could we do? Use  ? No. That doesn't look good. The current way of referring to everything by their supported network type (GSM/CDMA/Global) helps in going to a different page.
 * Let's say I'm on BrightonMaps 10B329 (iPhone 4 GSM) and I want to go the CDMA device. What do I do? Go to the URL and replace  with  . With the model numbers, I'd have to navigate to Firmware, then find the link, or find out what the model number of the CDMA variant is and replace the model number in the URL with that.


 * Ok, who navigates by the URL and search bar? I do. And I'm sure there's many people out there that prefer to navigate with the search bar if they know the page name. If we go by model number, the AJAX search results just list pages with a model number in parenthesis. How does that help? I'd either have to know the model number of the device I want, or visit each one until I find the page I need.
 * Sorry for the rant, but I am strongly against this. --5urd (talk) 23:25, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I do suppose we could just trash the buildtrain all together to shorten it down too. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:32, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Dropping the Build Train would only increase the workload. Besides, what's the harm with it? We've been using the same page title structure since forever, and it's worked. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The current system works, so why, other than the fact that Apple refers to them differently, should we change this? In addition, we don't refer to everything the way Apple does. The iPad mini 1G is referred to as the "iPad mini". The iPad 3) is refered to as "The New iPad". The iPad 4 is refered to as "iPad with Retina Display" . Are the key pages titled  ? No. --5urd (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * But the reason we want to not use the variants is because the new devices that are coming out are breaking he structure and also CDMA versions can use GSM in the 5c plus we have like 4 for GSM alone. I only meant drop buildtrain to shorten the urls down. For the iPhone 4 GSM Rev A we would have to list it as  unless another idea is thought of. --iAdam1n (talk) 00:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * No. Anything involving moving key pages to change their title I am completely against. As for the iPhone 5s and iPhone 5c, we ultimately have to wait. There may be different types, but if they all work with the same firmware, then what do we do then? Use ? I don't want to do that. It can get confusing in the future if that list were to be huge. With 5 different models for the iPhone 5c alone, it's just not practical. For the fact that all support GSM, but not all support CDMA, we just do what we've been doing: "GSM" and "Global". --5urd (talk) 01:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There's nothing wrong with changing the titles of pages that don't even exist though. If *all* of the models use the same firmware, just go with "iPhone 5s." If they happen to be partitioned into two different firmwares again, that will certainly complicate things, but it wouldn't be worse than nonsense like "GSM," "GSM [ Global]," "CDMA," "CDMA [ Global]," or "GSM [ Global Plus TD-LTE]." If it's just one oddball, we could just have "iPhone 5s" and "iPhone 5s A1XXX" (whatever the odd one is), and include a link on the former page to say "keys for model A1XXX are on this page." --Dialexio (talk) 02:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I probably didn't phrase that well… I wasn't thinking of how Apple markets the product, but rather more along the lines of how they refer to it in, say, the tech specs page or support documents— the pages that shows the messier side to their simple sugar coating. --Dialexio (talk) 02:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You keep misinterpreting/misrepresenting what I'm proposing. I never said anything about dropping, say, "iPhone 5" so firmware page titles would look like Sundance 10A405 (A1428). I want to change the GSM/Global part to the A1XXX number, so it would probably show like Sundance 10A405 (iPhone 5 A1428). (If a hardware revision were made, it would probably look like Sundance 10A405 (iPhone 5 A1428 Rev A).) From time to time, I edit URLs to browse the wiki too. But the GSM/Global identifiers don't work that well; again, all iPhone 5 models can connect to GSM. That's not really helpful. --Dialexio (talk) 02:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest we drop the A and use Rev. As for the idea of changing to A1XXX, I see no issues and am for the idea. I admit it can cause chaos when we move the pages but we could limit the moving per day of course. Overall, I think it will be worth it. --iAdam1n (talk) 10:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * No. Don't drop the  from  . Why would you even think to? You want to call them what Apple calls them, and the revised iPhone 4 GSM is referred to with  . In addition, there have been   things before, such as the S5L8947 (A5 Rev B) used in the revised Apple TV 3G. In addition, think of all the redirects we would need to keep for sites that link to key pages directly. I have even seen sites that still link with the URLs as   instead of the year old change to  . The wiki handles that internally for us, but the redirects made in the moves would have to be kept. Currently, only the iPhone 5 and iPad 4 are the only devices referred to by their model numbers. --5urd (talk) 20:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That's why I don't want to change it. It's worked for us, and we have no idea how the new firmwares will be handled. I am betting that there will only be two firmware types - one for the GSM, and one for the Global (GSM+CDMA) model. The only reason they are split, IIRC, is because AT&T uses different LTE bands than rest of the GSM world.
 * Ultimately, the GSM/CDMA/Global monikors haven't caused any naming conflicts. Ok, you don't want to use the marketing title. What about the way they are referred to on ADC, because that seems to be what you want. I may be misreading what you're saying again, but if we're going to do that, let's use their full title. Something  (iPad 4 Wi-Fi) and   (iPad 3 Global). Does the first one tell you if the device is Wi-Fi or a Wi-Fi+3G model? Does the second one tell you at all that it is an iPad 3, or that it supports GSM? No.
 * Apple has a history of being inconsistent. For example, the iPad 3 Wi-Fi is referred to on ADC (and iTunes) as "iPad Wi-Fi (3rd generation)" while the iPad 3 GSM is referred to as "iPad Wi-Fi + Cellular [model for AT&T]". What happened to the "3rd generation"? --5urd (talk) 20:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * We could always list as  etc instead if that would be better. --iAdam1n (talk) 21:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Why is there a need to explicitly keep "Wi-Fi" in a key page's title? All you need is a way to distinguish what model it is from its other variants— the A1XXX model number does just that. It's not like we referred to the AppleTV3,2 as "Apple TV 3G (New Single-Core A5)" or something. And obviously, we can use common sense to address the 3rd generation iPad issue you brought up… Now you're just nitpicking. --Dialexio (talk) 05:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think we should wait until we see the firmware for iPhone 5c/5s and then decide. TBH, as 5urd said, it is ok as it is but of course if once the new firmware is out it is more confusing, then we can think again. --iAdam1n (talk) 14:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Come to think of it, we can use a mix of both; we can keep the "Global" moniker, but drop the "GSM" moniker in favor of the A1XXX model number. (The "GSM" moniker is the one that's been bothering me.) I think this works well for the iPad 3 (which is actually split into "CDMA" and "Global—" it probably doesn't need to be done for this), iPad 4, iPad mini 1G, and iPhone 5, but this leaves the question of what to do for the iPhone 5C/5S. --Dialexio (talk) 04:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * That would look worse! If we are going to do it, we have to do it for all. --iAdam1n (talk) 09:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What is the status on this now? --iAdam1n (talk) 21:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)


 * This discussion has stagnated, but I'm firing it up again— I want to fix this before the end of the year, so this can probably be seen as an ultimatum. Now that Apple has pushed a 7.1 beta to developers, we now know how Apple's splitting the new iPhones up— and it's by A1XXX model numbers still. :\ That's probably the path the wiki will go down, but I do have another idea. The other idea I have in mind is using the A1XXX model number for the cellular devices launched last year. But for this year's iPhones, the FCC ID is actually different between the two, so we could actually use that. Before this gets nitpicked on, the last letter can get changed to an "X" to signify that it's a wildcard of sorts. It's not a pretty solution so I do expect it to get shot down (hence why I'm going with the A1XXX model numbers unless everyone says otherwise), but I'm still throwing it out there in case everyone actually likes that. Everyone is welcome to suggest alternatives, but I will eliminate that GSM label before the year ends. --Dialexio (talk) 18:31, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * That is worse, nobody knows the FCC ID off the top of their head. I would suggest "iPhone 5 (iPhone5,1)" if anything. --iAdam1n (talk) 18:37, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Using "iPhone5,1" or "iPhone6,2" is even less friendly… The FCC ID can be looked up in Settings or the back of a device. --Dialexio (talk) 19:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Well that is not the point. I say either use the firmware name or leave it alone. See what others thing though. --iAdam1n (talk) 19:13, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I currently plan on using the A1XXX model numbers— the FCC ID proposal was just thrown out there in the off chance that someone might like it. I'm not really a fan of it myself, but the FCC ID is probably the simplest way to figure out if it's an iPhone6,1 or iPhone6,2 since both have multiple A1XXX model numbers. --Dialexio (talk) 19:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree to get rid of the "GSM" name, as almost all iPhones support GSM. The Axxxx numbers would be nice, but as some phones have several numbers, like A1457/A1518/A1528/A1530 (what is actually different between them?) we can't use it. For the FCC-ID, we can't use that either, because for example the iPhone 5 with FCC-ID BCG-E2599A stands for the GSM/A1428 and also for the GSM+CDMA/A1429 version. So I suggest to either use the identifier (like iPhone2,1) or better the internal name (like n88ap). That would have the advantage to separate them further, because the iPhone 4 A1332 has two internal versions: iPhone3,1/n90ap and the iPhone3,2/n90bap. The bigger question is where you want to use this. That determines mainly the name. On all the key pages? Then it must be a name that is different between models that use different firmwares. And regarding key pages, maybe we should delete all the key pages from this wiki and move them into some database instead and provide a nice user interface and API around it and integrate that into the wiki somehow. That way we can change all pages with one simple edit. For the name, I prefer the internal name. --http (talk) 23:43, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * We would have to edit key pages too. They should not be removed however. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:46, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I wasn't trying to say that we had to decide on one way to differentiate everything; "GSM" does work fine for, say, the iPhone 4. The proposal I brought up today was using the FCC ID only for this year's (2013's) iPhones— last year's cellular devices would get the A1XXX model numbers (i.e. two different solutions for two different years). But as of right now, I like how using A1XXX model numbers sounds for all of the affected devices, mostly because that's the path Apple's going in their developer portal. Something like "iPhone 5s (Model A1457/A1518/A1528/A1530)" is admittedly a mouthful for this year's iPhones though. At the moment, I'm inquiring about how to label it on Firmware and such pages, but I'm sure the outcome can be adapted for key page titles as well. As for differences between the models, it seems to be the supported LTE bands. --Dialexio (talk) 03:49, 19 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I still think that unless it is "iPhone 5 (iPhone5,1)" it will be complicated but on the other hand, I kind of like the idea that http had, using the internal identifiers like this "iPhone 5 (n42ap)". The only problem is that it would cause quite a bit of a flood moving the key pages, although this can be done like 15 per day each or something. --iAdam1n (talk) 09:20, 19 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure the only key page that exists for an A5 (or newer) device is Telluride 9A406 (iPhone 4S). --Dialexio (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * That was an example. I know there are no more A5 pages, only the one you said and two beta for iPhone 4S. I just meant that it would show the design. --iAdam1n (talk) 13:36, November 21, 2013 (UTC)

Future plans
Now that I have SSH access, I've begun working on making several, somewhat-overdue changes to the wiki. The Renameuser extension was reinstated, so admins can now rename accounts. If you have another account, that can also get merged into your current account. If you happen to get locked out from both your account and the email used is no longer active, I can run a script to reset your password. I've also begun implementing a very noticeable change— as users of the Vector skin have noticed, the iOS 6-based theming is gone. It's a semi-temporary move though; it's going into its own skin, because… you know, choice is cool. People who like the Vector skin may not have liked the iOS theming, especially since IE 9 and lower didn't display it completely accurately. Therefore, it's going into its own theme. Once that's done I also plan on making a separate iOS 7-based skin. If there are any further thoughts or suggestions on how to improve the wiki, do let me know! --Dialexio (talk) 22:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Device naming
I have been thinking, should we not list "iPod touch 2G" as "iPod touch 2nd Generation"? The latter is the correct naming. --iAdam1n (talk) 18:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason to change that. The only problem is the confusion with the iPhone 2G, which was the 1st generation. But that's pretty much solved for now. I suggest to leave it as it is. --http (talk) 09:52, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with iAdam1n; for example: "iPhone 2G" should be just "iPhone (1st gen.)"; "iPod touch/iPad 3G" should be "iPod touch/iPad (3rd gen.)". --Jaggions (talk) 12:47, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The "iPod touch 2G" naming was something that got carried over from how everyone referred to the regular iPods. (They were frequently called "iPod shuffle 3G," "iPod nano 4G," "iPod 5.5G," etc.) Also, the problem with "iPad 3G" is that you could be referring to a 3G-equipped iPad (what was used before Apple started using "Cellular"), or a 3rd generation iPad. Like http, I don't see a need to change the names because of that. If there's one device that would need "renaming," it would probably be the original iPhone, but Apple gave all of their iPhones unique names. -- Dialexio ( talk ) 17:33, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Using "plainlinks"
I was wondering if we could use this throughout the wiki. I have done it already on my page and a couple of others, but I didn't want to do more if people want it left as is. --iAdam1n (talk) 10:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Wasn't something like this discussed before at some point? As I recall, the consensus was no. -- Dialexio ( talk ) 15:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I too am opposed to this. The reason MediaWiki does that is so you can tell what is an internal link and what is not. MediaWiki supports "interwiki" links (like  on Wikipedia for the Spanish Main Page) so they look like internal links while still being external. The reasoning for interwiki links, is to allow external links while saying that you, as a community, view that website as another resource for your site. For example, we link to Wikipedia a lot, and by using the interwiki link format, we are saying that Wikipedia is, in a sense, a part of us. Removing the external icon removes the ability for the user to know that they are leaving your "site". Sorry for that way of explaining it, it was the only thing that I could think of... --5urd (talk) 16:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm also against this. The "wiki standard" (whatever that is) shows them, so we should leave it like that. There's no need to make it look different. Also, before you start editing a few pages with any site-wide change, please discuss that first. Not after the fact that five pages have the new style (that we might have to reverse) and other ten pages not. The same happened with the key pages; before the discussion started, several pages were changed already (I was too late in the game to contribute to the discussion though). --http (talk) 21:52, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I did revert all pages to not use it except my user page. --iAdam1n (talk) 22:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Homepage suggestions
Under "Application Development", what about linking to iPhoneDevWiki? It's also a community-edited technical resource, and it links to this wiki. It could be helpful to add a little more detail to "Get up to speed in the community.", like this: "Get up to speed in the community - learn about how jailbreaks work." Under "Definitions", it could be helpful to list all the firmware tags in one line or sub-list, similar to how Jailbreak is organized next to Tethered jailbreak and Untethered jailbreak, both to save space and help readers understand the list. --Britta (talk) 23:01, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * A link to the iPhoneDevWiki sounds good. I wonder if we should have an "External Links" or "Other Resources" section to include links to other sites (such as the iPhone Dev Team blog) though. As for the "Up to Speed" page, I feel like the entire page could be reworked a bit— and perhaps even receive a new, clearer name (Introduction? Preface? Or something else?)— the current name makes it sound like it's for people that last paid attention to jailbreaking when the App Store didn't exist. And yeah, moving the IMG3 tags to a sub-list sounds like a really good idea. (Admittedly, I actually don't care for its inclusion in the first place, but that's just a personal preference.) --Dialexio (talk) 00:10, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * There's already Useful Links with some links to other core community resources (which could be updated and rearranged) - I was just thinking that it'd be especially useful to link to iPhoneDevWiki prominently since it's likely for TheiPhoneWiki visitors to also be interested in relatively-organized technical information about development. Changing the name of "Up to Speed" sounds fine to me too - that page didn't get much attention since 2008 until I sort of commandeered it to serve as an "intro to jailbreaking" page. :) It could be renamed "getting started", as in "how to get started on learning about research into iOS devices, especially security research (such as jailbreaks)". Britta (talk) 00:31, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Also I'd love to see a dedicated section for "Good tasks for new editors", where we could maintain a list of relatively easy/straightforward suggested edits that wouldn't require vast technical knowledge, like updating that links page. Where would that go? Add it as a sub-section of The Apple Wiki:Current events and link that section from the homepage or something? Or make a new page? Britta (talk) 00:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Recent Changes page
All of us are working hard to make this wiki better and better and always up to date, but I see that recently the Recent Changes page is constantly flooded by edits on Firmware pages prevalently by iAdam1n. I find it quite annoying, and I wonder why those pages are continuously changed. --Jaggions (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, its not being flooded at all. I do 15 a day which was discussed on the keys discussion page. We agreed to edit all of those pages, so I have limited it. --iAdam1n (talk) 21:47, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * If you are offended by this, you should have said something while this was being discussed. As for "continuously change[ing]" the pages, there is a very clear line between adding keys and updating the format. In addition, as Adam said, we are limiting to 15 pages a day. If you are going to complain about flooding, you haven't seen anything. Before we imposed the 50 edits a day rule, when a new firmware version would come out, the recent changes would be flooded. Literally. Sometimes even 100 edits in an hour because people didn't use the "Show preview" button. --5urd (talk) 22:09, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Key page links for A5+
I was thinking, so we do not clog up wanted pages, I think we should not link to pages for A5+ that have not been created due to it is not possible so we could just use the black text. It is annoying to see all that red when you also click them accidentally. Of course IF ever an exploit is found, this can be changed. --iAdam1n (talk) 15:11, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For me it doesn't matter if a few page links are red. We want to link and have them anyway some day in the future. But if you feel better when there are no links, I'm fine with that too. Wait for some other opinions before changing it. --http (talk) 23:09, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I do prefer it. I will wait until the 7 days are up anyway. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I personally don't mind seeing them. I vote to leave them. It would be a massive undertaking. As for the wanted pages list, I might be able to cook up some JavaScript to take care of it. --5urd (talk) 18:20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That could work. --iAdam1n (talk) 20:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe baseband too? Also, what about the key pages for no downloads that we have no info on and no way to create them? --iAdam1n (talk) 12:52, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to the SEP-Firmware thing on the keys template, it just makes it easier should we ever find a way to get keys for them. We won't have to add a crapload of stuff when then because the boilerplate is already there. If you are referring to pages that don't exist because we can't get the keys from the devices, I vote to leave them so we won't need to add the links back should we ever find a way to get the keys. IIRC, unthreaded is a bootrom exploit, but I may be wrong. If it is, then we could get keys for all the devices except the 5c and 5s. --5urd (talk) 00:21, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No I meant the basebands. --iAdam1n (talk) 17:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Model Identifiers Such As N42AP
I think we should we move the pages to have the capitals etc as its listed as lowercase on here but not in FS. I mean, we know N78aAP is not all capitals but we do know just the 5 characters are. What do you all think? I would do just 10 edits per day on this. --iAdam1n (talk) 06:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. The device IDs are lowercase internally, so the pages themselves, such as n42ap should have a  block at the top. As for the model definition files, I don't know why Apple decided to use capitals. --5urd (talk) 15:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Where are the internal ones found then? Anywhere we can view? --iAdam1n (talk) 18:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the codenames are actually capitalized in some spots (e.g. SpringBoard capabilities, /System/Library/CoreServices/CoreTypes.bundle/Contents/Library/MobileDevices.bundle/Contents/Info.plist in Mac OS X) and lowercase in others (e.g. IMG3 file names). To me, it seems like there's no correct way to denote them. -- Dialexio ( talk ) 14:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Page Deletions
I see a lot of pages get deleted recently. For the filesystem pages that contain no useful info, we agreed to create a file structure tree overview page first, but that doesn't exist yet, so we should wait with all filesystem page deletions until we have that. I also see important pages getting deleted, like the Apple TV Firmware Versions with tons of edits without any discussion. As admin, I could look up the history of that deleted page and saw that there was a deletion request added (which I missed somehow) just two days ago. I can see now the reasons for the deletion (most, but not all info is now on the Firmware and Beta Firmware pages). But we need some time to discuss this. Nobody of us has access to the server logs, so you have no idea how many external sites link to deleted pages and are broken now. Not even a redirect was left. Remember that geohot said he doesn't see any reason to ever delete a page. So we should be more careful with this. And for the Talk pages, just because the related page has been deleted, that's no reason (by itself) to delete the Talk page. If we delete the Talk page, we should also move the discussion to the new place (wherever that is). --http (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It was my idea to delete them, though I marked them, I did not expect them all to go that quick. Which links also? I do not see any reason to keep any filesystem pages myself unless they have a summery of what they are etc. Due to the fact that there are so many wanted pages that are never likely to be made, I am in between unlinking but using just the text. If you, http, could create that page and do a couple of examples I would be happy to help out but I cannot create it as I do not have a clue what you would list on it nor the format--iAdam1n (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Administrators
Just wondering, how can someone become an admin here? Does he need to meet particular requirements? --Jaggions (talk) 21:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Just by being active, helping out and being patient. --iAdam1n (talk) 21:33, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Geohot also has to take notice— it's all up to him, actually. Admins/sysops are unable to make other users admins. -- Dialexio ( talk ) 06:06, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Changing "Build" on Firmware and Beta Firmware
I was going to post this on the talk page of "Firmware", but then I realized it would involve creation of many pages, so I'm posting here.

What I'm proposing is we change the Firmware's and Beta Firmware's device's "Build" column to look like this (iPhone 2G used) [links removed to save bytes]: We would then at the respective pages, give an overview of the build train, like what firmwares it was used on? Maybe even a link to the Wikipedia article of the ski resort it's named after? In addition, we could replace the the links of modified build trains, like SUTimberline, with a link to a section on Timberline (i.e.  to  )? --5urd (talk) 18:00, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would agree if we did not link to the codename pages, just have it as text. --iAdam1n (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I would move the build number next to the firmware version, and as Adam said, don't link the codenames. (Actually, maybe the codenames could get dropped altogether? Or even moved to a brand new page?) -- Dialexio ( talk ) 07:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hm actually, I like the idea of trashing the codenames and moving build before baseband. Although this would be a big task of moving pages but we could just move say 20 each per day. --iAdam1n (talk) 07:25, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm against dropping the build train from the page names, but I'd be fine with removing the build train from the link text. --5urd (talk) 19:14, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * That would be just more complicated. We should either drop them on the key pages too, or better still, keep them here in a new column like you listed but without the linking to pages with  and move it so that the build is next to version then codename then baseband. --iAdam1n (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I was saying... --5urd (talk) 19:33, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

For people who cannot visualise this. --iAdam1n (talk) 19:42, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
 * As we are all agreed, I will do this later. I have also asked 5urd on iMessage and he said he was going to do it but is busy so I will. --iAdam1n (talk) 13:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

What beta number was 5A308?
I get the reasoning. Apple released one for enterprise use, then one for standard developer use. However, are we sure it was 2.0 beta 6? Why would Apple drop the suffix letter from the build on the same version? In addition, Wikipedia's "iOS SDK" reports that it was 2.0 beta 7 that received the two builds, not beta 6. Wrapping it all together: 5A292g - 2.0 beta 6 5A308 - 2.0 beta ? (Now in the 300s and suffix letter dropped) 5A331 - 2.0 beta 7 The Wikipedia article reports that 5A292g was released May 28. Ok, that's correct here. Wikipedia also reports that (the supposed two) beta 7 firmware was released June 9. Ok, the wiki is also correct for 5A331. However, we report that 5A308 was released on May 29. Now, either we are wrong, or Wikipedia is wrong. Either way, someone is wrong about the beta number and release date of 5A308. Anyone know of anything that can solve this?

The [ very first version of "Firmware Keys"] already lists 5A308 as beta 6. In addition, the revision is dated July 27, so there is no timestamp to help solve this. --5urd (talk) 18:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tried Google, and of the sites I've looked at, they report as 5A308 being "iPhone SDK beta 6", not "iPhone OS beta 6". Here are some excerpts from a MacRumors thread (emphasis mine):

I'm really confused about the 3G rumors relating to iPhone 2.0 Beta 6. (5A308).
 * Here is the title of one from World of Apple (dated May 29) (emphasis mine):

Apple Releases iPhone SDK Beta 6, iPhone OS 2.0 Build 5A308
 * This points in the direction of us being right, but can anyone help confirm this? --5urd (talk) 18:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This has been found since. --iAdam1n (talk) 17:56, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Key page idea
I was wondering if it would be a good idea to make another category for key pages which do not have a complete key listing which has a bootrom exploit? That way, if people know how to get the keys, it would be easy to know which need to be added to. To me, the age does not matter as some people keep beta IPSW's stored no matter the age. Let me know what you all think. --iAdam1n (talk) 17:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should create a category for that, because ultimately that list will be empty. Maybe we could list them here (or somewhere else) and then just remove the references as we complete the pages? That way we avoid editing lots of pages without adding anything to them. --http (talk) 22:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe Incomplete Key Pages? I could add the links to the pages on there if we agree and then like you said, remove when complete. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I would prefer to add it to an existing page, as it will get deleted when complete. If you want to keep that page forever (like to list the A5+ devices) then yes, create that new page you mentioned. If it's only for the incomplete pages, adding the list to one of the comment pages is enough. --http (talk) 21:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It is only for pre A5 although it will never be complete. 5urd has an idea but he is away atm so cannot do it which is to make it go to another category if it sees "TODO". --iAdam1n (talk) 21:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

One additional idea: I think redsn0w and/or sn0wbreeze has a list of all keys included in it. You could use that to complete any missing information here or point out any differences. --http (talk) 23:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I checked redsn0w but it does not have all the keys just a few. sn0wbreeze will likely be the same as it only needs a few files patched. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:23, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I went through sn0wbreeze completely about a week ago, and every key it contains has been added here. --5urd (talk) 02:43, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 5urd made an edit that made it automatically show on Incomplete Key Pages category if it sees any TODO on the page. --iAdam1n (talk) 20:35, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The iPhone Wiki re-design
The design of the iPhone wiki is now quite old and I think it should be updated. I made a concept. --Jaggions (talk) 10:30, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree. If anything add an iPhone 5 to the logo but everything else is ok. --iAdam1n (talk) 11:05, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't change the logo to an iPhone 5, especially with iOS 7 and a new iPhone (that will probably look the same as the 5, admittedly) around the corner. I contemplated updating the CSS for iOS 7's UI but decided not to because of the UI's supposed volatility (during the beta period) and I don't have a live version to toy around with. (I personally don't like its current state, but that's not a factor in why I'm not changing it yet.) --Dialexio (talk) 16:25, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Can we not do flat? --Haifisch (talk) 21:02, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This is what I was thinking. When iOS 7 finally comes out, we could change the CSS to look like that instead. --5urd (talk) 21:11, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * iOS 7 looks ugly. We do not want it like that. Maybe a bit more modern but nothing much. --iAdam1n (talk) 21:16, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * You may not want it like that. That's your opinion. --5urd (talk) 01:55, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * We could make a poll, and see if most users agree or disagree. --Jaggions (talk) 10:05, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The idea looks nice. But before we make any changes, let's wait until iOS7 comes out. And I'd prefer to just add another skin instead (if possible). I'm still using the classic MonoBook skin by the way. You shouldn't impose design changes to everyone. --http (talk) 14:38, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem with skins is that geohot needs to set them up... An idea I have is that we copy the Vector skin verbatim to a new skin and move the modifications (not general stuff) to Mediawiki:iOS6.css. Then we can do another verbatim copy to   and modify Mediawiki:iOS7.css. We could then set the default skin to either   or   so you don't need to be logged in to see them like currently. Then if someone doesn't like them, like you, just change your settings to your preferred skin. The only way around needing geohot is if he opens up the credentials to FTP or whatever to someone. --5urd (talk) 21:17, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * I like 5urd's suggestion. --iAdam1n (talk) 22:29, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

What about just removing the text-shadow element for now? I think pages would be easier to read without it. Here's an example: File:Noshadow.png. Britta (talk) 00:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah removing the shadow will make everything seem more flat but like http I'm still using the classic MonoBook skin --Jaggions (talk) 21:19, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Completed template
I was wondering, what about if I make a template with a completed stamp? I think this would be useful to mark talk pages as done. Let me know what you think and how I add colors to templates. --iAdam1n (talk) 14:48, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not particularly fond of this. I'm not going to object to this, but the way I see it, if a consensus is reached, then the topic is over and can be archived. If someone wants to reply to an archived topic, they just need to copy the topic back to the main page, delete it from the archive, and then reply to the appropriate person. --5urd (talk) 22:08, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok but most topics here have been done so should be archived. Theme for one, ATV3,2 for another. --iAdam1n (talk) 22:30, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. As for how long to wait before archiving after a consensus, a week or two seems reasonable enough. --5urd (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I will wait two then archive if needed. You may now archive this. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:29, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

More Esser Info
i0nic's slides from his CanSecWest presentation have been released. Where should we link to them from? --beej 17:38, 17 March 2012 (MDT)
 * Added to i0n1c. --iAdam1n (talk) 17:44, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Source Code as defined in the Ground Rules
The ground rules state no source code from Apple is allowed, however IDA + HexRays reversed C code is not from Apple, but determined by analizing the assembly (which is technically public), and building a document that would compile to code that does the same thing. So, is it legal to post HexRays C code here? IIRC, their EULA does not prohibit it. Now, IANAL, but it appears to be legal from my understanding of US copyright. Also, look at MobileDevice Library - it's a header file of a copyritten program determined by reverse engineering... --5urd (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know US copyright. The assembly code is not public. But I don't see a problem with reversed code, because that is more like a describing language of what the machine code does. But if it actually matches exactly the source code, which you found somewhere, I think that would be a problem. It also depends on the amount of code you have; small portions to show something would be no problem, while the entire kernel is a different issue. --http (talk) 00:59, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. As for the kernel, OS X's versions are open sourced, so those can be included with the appropriate license notice. --5urd (talk) 01:01, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

iPhone 5
Since Apple uses the A1XXX model number to tell the difference between models, I was thinking about changing the key page names accordingly. What does everybody else think? (This may also apply to the 3rd and 4th generation iPads, and the iPad mini.) -- Dialexio ( talk ) 19:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm against it as it breaks the consistency --5urd (talk) 21:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * We should use Apple's terminology wherever possible. Where's the consistency problem? And yes, if Apple names them that way, we should rename all devices that way, not only the iPhone of course. But before starting such a project, we should be 100% sure Apple continues this usage. --http (talk) 22:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The consistency I was refering to is how Apple references the iPhone 4 variants as AT&T (GSM) and Verizon (CDMA), the iPad 2 variants as,   for GSM, and   for CDMA, but the iPhone 5 is the only one I've seen where the separate models are referred to by their model number. We have kept the x##ap variation the entire lifetime of the site, so changing it would be a **MASSIVE** job to fix all the redirects. Plus, when have we followed Apple's outward marketing?
 * We use  and such while Apple uses   and  . We use   while Apple uses  . Apple labels the   as just a plain, not   like we use here. The only reason we use that is becuause Apple referes to the revised Wi-Fi iPad 2 as a "Rev A" on the **Dev Center**.
 * What makes the dev center a choice for naming conventions? The fact that it is a **developer** center - a place where things are supposed to get a little technical. Anyways, that's my "rant". --5urd (talk) 23:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you think I was talking about replacing the p101ap, etc. pages; I was talking about the device names on key pages (e.g. "Brighton 10B141 (iPad 4 GSM)"). Since there are no keys for the newer devices, it's not going to make redirects. We're only using "iPad 4" because we couldn't find a good replacement, and "Brighton 10B141 (iPad (4th generation) Wi-Fi)" would be way too long/ludicrous. (You should know this, actually; I remember you chiming in.) But what's the problem with relying a little on the iOS Developer Center for some names? Using the A1XXX model numbers actually seems like a better distinction method to me. I was actually reluctant to use "GSM" and "Global" when I coined them for this generation of cellular iOS devices, since all cellular models are capable of GSM communications. But now that there's a way that Apple decided on to differentiate between them, why not use it? -- Dialexio  ( talk ) 03:58, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

AppleTV3,2
AppleTV3,2 is a Revision A --5urd (talk) 21:07, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Can someone please add this to Firmware Keys. I tried but cannot work out how this works. --iAdam1n (talk) 22:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Add what? --5urd (talk) 23:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It has been done in the meantime. --iAdam1n (talk) 23:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

THIS IS THE NEW MIRROR
Isn't migration fun? --geohot (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * So much --Haifisch (talk) 23:21, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

The migration is complete and the old site has been taken offline. Costs me about $50 per month to run, but for now am still avoiding donations or ads. The old one was unacceptably slow, this site gets about 100,000 page loads per day and it was time to move to server that could handle it. It's using a Squid proxy and barely loaded now, so it is capable of handling much more traffic. And it's much more of a pleasure to visit. I'm hoping the increase in speed will encourage more content creation, and if there's anything else I can do to encourage that, let me know, I'm happy to do it. --geohot (talk) 20:09, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the migration geohot. This helps a lot. See the comments on your talk page since when we have this problem, I think since February or so.
 * I'd also like to have an emergency contact where we could reach you (just for wiki related issues, maybe only for admins, so that you don't get bothered with nonsense) - you have our emails to contact us for this if you think it's a good idea.
 * If the hosting fee gets a problem, just let us know. Just open a targeted donation and you'll have the money for the next ten years hosting or so. I'm happy to sponsor a month per year or so. --http (talk) 22:16, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Im willing to contribute to the costs, if needed. --Haifisch (talk) 01:10, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ditto --5urd (talk) 22:30, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It would be nice to see an option for donations, even if not for current running cost for future upgrades or running cost. (Possibly to support related research projects) Just wondering if theres any problem with that?
 * Geo, this is a great site, resource its great to see you working behind the scences. I know you could probably afford it and is easier to pay your self but if we can share the cost why not :) --Blue Skies (talk) 09:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

evad3rs page
I made this page but 5urd deleted this. I was wondering why? Also what are everybody's thoughts on this? --iAdam1n (talk) 11:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * We had this discussion in the past already on some similar pages. But I think when several of these respected hackers bring this term up several times, then we can also have a page for it. But iAdam1n (talk), don't just create the page again, wait for this discussion to finish. --http (talk) 11:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I had already made it before seeing this. In future I will just wait. I did put a note to 5urd saying that he left no reason for deletion. --iAdam1n (talk) 12:02, 26 January 2013 (UTC) There is also a twitter account and it has been mentioned that its them by pod2g.
 * I also think when a page is deleted the user should give a reason for it. Otherwise no one knows why. --iAdam1n (talk) 12:11, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It is correct that deletions should be discussed first. 5urd, can you give a reason why you acted so fast, with no discussion at all? --http (talk) 12:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * My apologies. I deleted it as we had an edit war about 2 1/2 years ago on unpopular dev "teams" which resulted in the 3 year block of the main page. There were numerous pages made and a flood of edits to the main page. A simple mention my pod2g does not validate a "team"'s "worthiness" unless it was stated that he is working with them. On a side note, just because you see a "team" that claims to have a jailbreak for 6.0 does not mean they are legitimate. I now looked the team up and it is legitimate, so again, my apologies. --5urd (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Editing help
I noticed on the edit page there is a link to Help:Editing. This is actually an empty page. Should we remove this from the page or add some info to it? I am not sure what to add to it even so I haven't touched it. I was wondering what you all think. --iAdam1n (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * To remove it requires knowing the page it is set on (in the  NS). If you can find that, I'll be fine with changing it. --5urd (talk) 00:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It's at MediaWiki:Edithelppage. (Special:AllMessages is helpful.) --thekirbylover 11:23, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed. I changed it to link to Wikipedia's page. --5urd (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

iPad mini
Me and Alex were chatting on Twitter and the topic of what to do with the iPad mini and two solutions came up: The problem I see with the new page is there are three different models and when we have multiple models for a device, we make the page with that name a disambiguation page. Maybe we could have iPad mini have a note at the top to a disambiguation page (iPad mini (disambiguation) or iPad mini (first generation))? I don't want iPad mini 1G as we don't list the key pages with the 1G in the title (Wildcat 7B500 (iPad)). Any thoughts? --5urd 09:51, 25 October 2012 (MDT)
 * New section on iPad
 * New page: iPad mini
 * So let's see what we have right now for all the other categories:
 * iPhone -> m68ap for 1st gen, n82ap for 2nd gen, n88ap 3rd gen, iPhone 4 with different models n90ap, n90bap, n92ap, etc.
 * iPod touch -> n45ap for 1st gen, n72ap for 2nd gen, etc.
 * iPad -> k48ap for 1st gen (both Wi-Fi and 3G), iPad 2 for 2nd gen with k93ap, k94ap, k95ap, k93aap, etc.
 * Apple TV -> k66ap for 2nd gen
 * iPad mini -> ? for 1st gen with kap123 etc. for the different models
 * So previously we didn't have the problem, because:
 * 1st gen iPhone was only available in one model, m68ap
 * same for iPod touch, only one model, n45ap
 * for iPad, both models (Wi-Fi and 3G) had the same model number, later devices have different numbers.
 * for Apple TV, the first iOS version was 2nd gen, so the name without a version number can be used for the device category
 * For me it's clear that iPad mini is for the category of device and must be a separate page. As long as we have only one model, we can add all infos to there and don't create another page between the category and the individual models.
 * So the question comes up what to use later when there are more generations, what to use as disambiguation page between the category page iPad mini and the individual models, something that describes the first generation. We can't use iPad mini, because that's for the category. Why not use iPad mini 1 or iPad mini 1G? I mean the only problem is that it doesn't match the key pages. So either we start the key pages to include the generation as well, or we simply ignore this difference. I mean why is this a problem if this single page to describe the specifics of the first generation iPad mini has a generation number in the page title? Everybody knows that leaving this 1G away gets you to the device category page iPad mini. So I don't see a problem here. And as long as there is no 2nd generation, we don't even need such a page. Ok, so I suggest:
 * create iPad mini for the device category
 * while no 2nd generation exists, put all links onto that same page iPad mini
 * when 2nd gen iPad mini comes out, create a page iPad mini 1 and iPad mini 2 (or with the "G" if you wish)
 * the key pages can be with our without the "1G", I don't care

--http 14:46, 25 October 2012 (MDT)
 * I went ahead and moved the stuff to iPad mini with a possible link to iPad mini 1G. I kept the G because everything else has it. I also put a note up on iPad for the link. The key pages should be determined on how they are with other devices:
 * One model type (like iPad 1G)
 * Multiple (all else)
 * I don't think we should put the  on the key pages as we don't use ,  , or  . --5urd 21:38, 25 October 2012 (MDT)
 * I will make them all iPad mini. When/if we get a 2G iPad mini, add iPad mini 2G. --iAdam1n (talk) 15:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should put the  on the key pages as we don't use ,  , or  . --5urd 21:38, 25 October 2012 (MDT)
 * I will make them all iPad mini. When/if we get a 2G iPad mini, add iPad mini 2G. --iAdam1n (talk) 15:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should put the  on the key pages as we don't use ,  , or  . --5urd 21:38, 25 October 2012 (MDT)
 * I will make them all iPad mini. When/if we get a 2G iPad mini, add iPad mini 2G. --iAdam1n (talk) 15:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Firmware page
I know I just created the iPad mini and iPad (4th generation) entries on the Firmware page, but I was thinking… Instead of keeping the firmware tables unique to each model, could we keep the firmware tables divided by generation instead? (i.e. Instead of editing three pages for the iPad mini to add a new firmware, there would be just one page that holds the three firmware tables.) It'd certainly help keep the amount of changes made with each new firmware to a minimum. -- Dialexio 19:50, 30 October 2012 (MDT)
 * That would certainly reduce the amount of edits. They were separated as the source was getting ridiculously long. I'm for it. --5urd 20:00, 30 October 2012 (MDT)
 * As long as no information gets lost, feel free to change it. But I wonder how you want to put all this into a horizontal design. I think it won't fit or you'd have to remove infos. Can you explain further? --http 00:31, 31 October 2012 (MDT)
 * I think you might be misunderstanding a bit; I'm planning on, as one example, copying all of the iPad 2 firmware tables into one embedded page, instead of having four different pages that require editing. Everything's still going to look the same. :P -- Dialexio 01:21, 31 October 2012 (MDT)
 * Yes, I misunderstood you. I thought you wanted to regroup the lists by iOS version. Yes, just grouping more devices together seems like a simple change and seems to be useful. --http 04:06, 31 October 2012 (MDT)
 * Maybe we could do it like Beta Firmware where all current devices are on the page while deprecated devices are separated off. --5urd 18:45, 31 October 2012 (MDT)
 * This would make the code very long, horrible and hard to detect. Maybe someone can make a template like "Latest Public Release" on device pages? --iAdam1n (talk) 18:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * What? I made Beta Firmware like that so that instead of editing 15 pages per beta, you would only need to edit one. --5urd (talk) 20:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry I was thinking you meant all devices on one page. Would you like me to attempt to do it? Obviously I will preview it first to make sure its ok. I feel that this would be a good idea. --iAdam1n (talk) 19:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That's fine, but I would move the "deprecated" devices off of it to their own like Beta Firmware is to reduce clutter a bit. --5urd (talk) 19:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok sure. Or what about making a new page for them like Unsupported Devices ? This would make more sense I would think. I could also do this on Beta Firmware too. --iAdam1n (talk) 19:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I have made a depreciated devices template for each device type and have added them to that. Sorry for lots of edits but this was required to make the wiki in shape. Enjoy. --iAdam1n (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This now also applies to Beta Firmware. I did this because it uses less templates, looks neater and is easier to add devices to if/when needed. --iAdam1n (talk) 22:07, 14 January 2013 (UTC)