Talk:Main Page/2010

Should iH8sn0w be listed as a hacker?
Stop the edit war, and debate the question here. Otherwise I'll protect the main page. -- Dialexio 06:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he should because when we are waiting for a jailbreak, he comes out with sn0wbreeze for us to have a jailbreak until there is a full ready to go jailbreak. Just because he creates a GUI for xpwn doesn't mean he shouldn't not be considered a hacker. So stop your whining and you try to make something like that =/. Also by him creating sn0wbreeze, it gives developers time to update their apps for the newest firmware
 * I think he should. He uses IDA right? He makes patches? Found the blacksn0w baseband crash - hacker IMHO -- blackthund3r
 * Disagree. There are lots of other ppl @ the same level as sn0w that aren't listed there. Compared to MN, Geo and planet, he's nowhere near their level. Are we going to list sherif for finding the latest unlock exploit? It's not even up for debate, he doesn't belong there. --tsuehpsyde
 * Wrong! sn0wbreze is a graphical user interface of xpwn he just got the keys (another tool that is not his) and told xpwn to decrypt the .ipsw any one can do that and if ih8sn0w is classed as a hacker then blackthund3r should be as well --liamchat 16:01, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think he should be listed, he hasn't contributed anything really except for adding a GUI around xpwn or developing a tool that has already been released by someone else. He doesn't actually create anything on his own and if anyone can remember from before he failed to credit the correct people that created xpwn and claimed that since they weren't around anymore he didn't have too but eventually gave in after Geohot and MuscleNerd plus others got on him saying it wasn't really his work. --alpineflip

You all made good points and I can't not agree really :D Perhaps we need a developers page then? People like iH8sn0w (and possibly myself coming to Liamchat's point) that develop stuff for the iPhone Pwning community but can't be classified as 'hackers' as such but still need recognition. iH8sn0w has worked hard for the community... -- blackthund3r
 * Ok so we need a page to document all app's developed to help those who have just joined iphone community start to learn how jailbreaks actually work and we should have a section documenting all baseband crash developers --liamchat 18:11, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, agreed and agreed... That means that anyone can create something for the iPhone/iPod touch and receive credit/attribution and a way of making it available to everyone. It should literally list everyone and what they have contributed - including hackers/real JB devs. Also a page explaining the internals of a jailbreak would be advantageous (and I removed below section as it's being covered here) -- blackthund3r
 * FWIW, this section was recently added. [ This revision] is where it came into play. I think this is a good section to have on the Main page, but really it should be reserved for notable hackers in the iPhone community. geohot and MuscleNerd both write/work on jailbreaks and unlocks (their own, from scratch), even swapping work on ultrasn0w after geohot opened his source. PlanetBeing has also worked on unlocks (most recently the latest ultrasn0w revision), not to mention his work on Linux for iPhone to get that working. Someone noted earlier in a rev note that geohot isn't on the scene anymore. This is irrelevant, as this is still his Wiki (unless ownership changed?) and he's still hacking on the iPhone. Just because he's not giving you free stuff anymore doesn't mean he isn't involved. He just got tired of people bothering him. Regardless, ih8sn0w is not on the same level as these guys. At all. --tsuehpsyde
 * So if the homepage is only for notable hackers where do we put everything / everyone else? We need a categorized page that has sorted developers and what they made. Then anyone can write a program and distribute via the iPhone Wiki. Then everyone gets a mention and anyone can show their tools off without being overshadowed by 'the big boys' -- blackthund3r
 * A lot of people who make jailbreak's are not mentioned (Zibri - first to use the AES Keys) and ChronicDev both made a jailbreak and discovered an exploit --liamchat 18:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * His tools are mentioned which people can find easily on the main page so they will know who he is but to list him under a category with people like MN, PB, comex, pod2g etc he doesn't even fall close to. Just because you developed an app doesn't mean you are considered a hacker especially if it's not even your work originally! As for the patches in his new version of sn0wbreeze I'm pretty sure msft_guy (not affiliated with any dev teams) released his bundles and by coincidence sn0wbreeze supports the new FW shortly after --alpineflip
 * I dont believe iH8sn0w should be considered a hacker. All he does is repackage xpwn into a user-friendly GUI for Windows users and thats it. It's also funny how many naive people see him as being a hacker and they just have complete trust that he'll jailbreak the latest OS. He only recycles current known information. I bet if the dev team found a way to hide their bundles for when the iPhone 4 might be pwnagetool compatible, iH8sn0w will not be able to make sn0wbreeze support it. It's also ridiculous how he just puts up both, donation links and a chipin link for funding for new devices. I believe that that is just being plain abusive. People need to open their eyes and see that iH8sn0w is nothing special. --gamer765

Why are we still arguing? blackthund3r and I agreed that iH8sn0w is not a hacker (he may be if he is the first to make the usb_control_msg(0xA1, 1) Exploit work), but until then I think we need to document the people who are working on tool's to help jailbreak the iPhones and iPod touches of the world. Also, there are a lot of jailbreaks that were made by random people like the libTiff Exploit and Ramdisk Hack, and because they were not made by iPhone Dev Team there were not welcomed like on Talk:Ramdisk Hack --liamchat 15:50, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The iPhone Dev team were the first to implement usb_control_msg(0xA1, 1) Exploit (discovered by pod2g) into redsn0w and released on September 20. iH8sn0w only mentioned after the fact that he then can include support a day later, and there are plenty of tools out only problem I see is iH8sn0w stuff isn't built very well --alpineflip

I'm going to go ahead and remove iH8sn0w for now since the general consensus here is that he doesn't belong in that group. Anyone that adds it back in, I will revert their change and point them to the discussion page since most of the people defending his position have not said anything in the discussion. --tsuehpsyde
 * So I am not for putting ih8sn0w's name in the hackers list but this guy needs some appreciations. At least he made something for the jailbreak community - that's why I am putting a new "category" called iPhone Hacks Developers so that iH8sn0w's name will be on this wiki, even if not in the hackers category. I hope this is OK for the most of you, I am gonna wait before posting it so that any one that doesn't like this idea will talk and post in here. -- ahmadlharb
 * Why do we need an 'iPhone Hacks Developers' section on the main page? There's already a section with applications (including sn0wbreeze), which when you click on them, tells you who developed them. Is there some dire need to have ih8sn0w on the main page? If so, I'm not seeing it. --tsuehpsyde
 * Honestly, iH8sn0w doesn't even deserve to be in that list either. That list title kinda means that he develops hacks which he does not. A more appropriate title would be "XPwn repackagers" --gamer765
 * I think he should personally. You have to remember he did more than just repackage xpwn. He created tools for late bootroms that were on 3.1.2 to be jailbroken on new firmwares, though it is tethered. I also think it should go into detail on what each "hacker" does for the community. --JacobVengeance 23:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between created and copied, and unfortunately, none of iH8sn0w's work is original. Like gamer765 mentioned, his applications are listed on the wiki. There doesn't need to be a separate category for his stuff or others. It's not necessary IMO. --alpineflip

All right guys, so the general consensus is that iH8sn0w will not be listed on the main page (yet). Let's put the question to rest now, please. :) -- Dialexio 01:19, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think between us we have decided the following:
 * iH8sn0w should NOT be listed as a hacker on the main page
 * We need a page for ALL iPhone hacking scene developers for anyone that has contributed anything to hack / assist in hacking the iPhone
 * This page is to be called iPhone Hacks Developers though I think we need to make that name a bit better (unless, of course, there s a general theme that people like this name)
 * If anything was missed put let me know. Then we can present to the rest after -- blackthund3r
 * Considering how mostly groups are releasing jailbreak tools only, i think that the new section should be named Jailbreak tool developers. --gamer765
 * I agree. While most of us agree that ih8Sn0w's work isn't completely original code, it's still quite a feat to make command-line (or source only!) tools readily usable by the masses. --Ryccardo 12:33, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * you all asked for a jailbreak tool section and i made one so all app's that let you talk to iboot or decrypt ipsw can be posted and linked to the Up_to_speed for people who want to learn how hack iphone and ipods so add those app to IPhone_hacking_utilities --liamchat 13:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Hardware section names
Chronic, you started a name change in the hardware section. Such changes should be agreed on first. It's not even complete. Either we change it everywhere or revert back to how it was (my opinion). I also never liked the iAbc2,6 notation. Nobody knows what that is. Other opinions? --http 12:08, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Would prefer the old naming (ipod touch 2g, 3g, etc..) Would name the iOS Apple TV Apple TV 2G - even though this is not official name. Just my opinion. --M2m 14:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally I would say leave it with the Prod#,# as, lets face it, if you're looking for info on it here you probably know what it is by any name, and if not it doesn't take a whole lot to figure it out. Worst someone would have to do is follow the link to check. --OMEGA_RAZER
 * I'd prefer if every device was referred to by name (i.e.- "iPod touch 3G"). One thing is certain, though: it looks bizarre to have the iPhones listed by name, while the other devices are not. -- Dialexio 18:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, so 3:1 to change it back to full names. --http 23:40, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Apple TV
We could add the Apple TV to the hardware section on the main page as we have other pages for it in the wiki as well --M2m 07:42, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Done --5urd 15:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

SHAtter
I was thinking we should add SHAtter to the Jailbreak tools --5urd 02:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * SHAtter is the name of the exploit, not a jailbreak tool. :) -- Dialexio 02:31, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Greenpois0n will be added when it is released and more is known about it I hope. --JakeAnthraX 04:45, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, well what about adding limera1n? --5urd 23:25, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

The colored boxes
Why are there colored boxes and what do they represent as color? --5urd 18:26, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The colored boxes are supposed to represent progress made in each category. Orange (previously red, but changed due to readability issues) means it's nowhere near the goal. Yellow means progress is being/was made. Green means it's done and publicly available. -- Dialexio 18:52, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

VFDecrypt
I think we should have a section on VFDecrypt and the keys... --5urd 18:28, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * For the pages you just added exists a deletion request (see Talk:Firmware_Keys). So I don't think it's a good idea to put them to the main page. --http 21:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that they should just be deleted or cached as HTML or protected as I like having the keys --5urd 00:39, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Why are the keys listed on front page? Wouldn't it be better to not have the front page bloated with unimportant information? --JakeAnthraX 00:56, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose we can put Firmware Keys under "Keys" (so it would be alongside AES Keys, Apple Certificate, Baseband RSA Keys, et. al.). -- Dialexio 01:07, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I just don't think the front page should be bloated up with random things like 6 lines of VFDecrypt --JakeAnthraX 01:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

"Robert"
Hacking a wiki is like stealing a c00kie from a kid. BAD. (cookies ftw, aka i'm a kid :O) --Qwertyoruiop 19:03, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, it's fixed :) --5urd 19:26, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Protection
Can someone inform me why the main page was protected from all users? Not just newly created users? Cheers. --Beau 03:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * An edit war took place earlier, and unfortunately there's no option to protect it from just newly created users. If you want to make a change, Http and I will be more than happy to carry it out (pending approval, but we're pretty reasonable). -- Dialexio 03:46, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There kindof is, you just need to update to 1.16, but i guess only geohot can do that... :( --5urd 03:49, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * What was the war about? --5urd 00:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks --Dialexio, just thought that it was strange that Wiki pages are starting to be put together for /Applications yet there's no link present on the main page - if anything it might fit best atop the Software list. --Beau 03:58, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's actually already there, under the name "Filesystem" (which links to the root directory of iOS). :) -- Dialexio 04:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Posting KBAGs
Is there really a need to post KBAGs, if we already have decryption keys? Hell better yet instead of posting KBAG's post missing keys. --GreySyntax 16:57, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * i agree, KBAG's are practically useless after you have got the keys from them but --liamchat seems to post them anyway... --cj 17:01, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * i added them because i didn't have that device and on some pages the KBAG's are there with the keys so why not do that on all pages --liamchat 20:38, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Posting the KBAG and not saying what there from is useless. --GreySyntax 20:40, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * the layout was confusing i grab them in one big lump and it follows a generic system (see User talk:liamchat/2010 ) --liamchat 20:45, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The least you could do is place them appropriately, and not force someone like me to clean up after you. -- Dialexio 21:10, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Protection on Main Page/Welcome
I think you should protect Main Page/Welcome as it is editable by anyone... That is how I added the info on an IRC chatroom... --5urd 18:51, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * does this work on any other part's of this page and do we need an irc channel for a wiki --liamchat 23:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No reason not to have an IRC, just leave it be and people can go there to discuss things like formatting and what not. --JakeAnthraX 23:41, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It would be better to have it on a more iOS centered network such as Chronic's irc or OSx86. --GreySyntax 23:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * i have just made a better one on irc.expl0it.com in the room theiphonewiki however we need a system if people decide to use this --liamchat 00:37, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The Main Page is protected for three years only because n00bs kept adding themselves as iPhone hackers. Otherwise, it'd be open for editing by users like you. I see no need to protect Main Page/Welcome as long as there's no edit war, vandalism, or spam. :) -- Dialexio 23:27, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Surely there is no way it'll stay protected for 3 years, right? Just until we can get the n00bs to stop being so ridiculous, I suppose. It doesn't really matter, as I don't actually edit the main page, but I think it's rather funny. :P --dra1nerdrake 00:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Too bad people ignored my warning from September. :s Maybe I'll feel nice during the holidays? -- Dialexio 00:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If I could 'Like', 'Favorite', or 'Retweet' that post, I'd do it in a heartbeat. --dra1nerdrake 16:56, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Beta Firmware
I'd like to add Beta Firmware to the list and thought of putting it on the same line as Firmware, like this: Anybody against that? Because this page is protected I think it's polite to ask first. --http 18:44, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Firmware and Beta Firmware
 * Sounds good to me, though I'd probably make it an indented bullet, like this:
 * Firmware
 * Beta Firmware
 * Also, was that meant to be a jab at me? :s -- Dialexio 19:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No jab. Sorry if it sounded so. I just don't want to play god here and make changes while all others have to ask. I expect the same from you, at least if it's something that could potentially be disputed. And regarding format, I still prefer one line, to make the main page a little more compact. It's too large to fit on one page already and I don't want to make that worse. --http 20:06, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No harm done. :) If the edit is disputable, I would definitely ask on the talk page first. But I digress... Back to the topic. I must agree that the Main Page is definitely getting big, so your proposal would probably work better. -- Dialexio 21:08, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. --http 21:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

ABC order
I'd like to reorganize the links in alphabetical order, in an effort to curb my OCD-esque tendencies. Nobody has any aversions to this, right? -- Dialexio 07:23, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * What links do you want to sort? Example? Not that I want to do that (I work mostly from iPhone), but I'd like to know what you want to change. Or only on this page? --http 08:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I wasn't clear before. I was referring to some of the links on the Main Page. (Namely, the Hardware section, but there are other links that aren't arranged in alphabetical order either.) -- Dialexio 08:41, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I would prefer a chronological order. Mostly this order matches alphabetical order, but not always. This can apply also for the hardware list, like the compass being added to later devices. But you're right that there are totally unsorted areas. --http 12:38, 31 December 2010 (UTC)